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“independence” for Scotland!

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should Scotland become independent from the UK?

yes
10
56%
no
6
33%
I don't know
2
11%
 
Total votes: 18

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COflyontheWALL
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Re: “independence” for Scotland!

Post by COflyontheWALL » Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:47 pm

Easylife wrote:Historically the Scots are descended from the Norman Invaders anyway as were the English royalty.The border of Scotland moved up and down over the years and Scotland has only existed in its current form for a relatively short time in the scheme of things.
Would be interesting to see the reaction in the US if a State decided it wanted to break away .

...hmmm. We've already seen it. That didn't work out very well. It resulted in the death of 2% of the population of the US.

It simply wouldn't happen today. Except maybe Texas.
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Re: “independence” for Scotland!

Post by Easylife » Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:55 pm

frank2345babies wrote:Let's not forget that Scotland did win its independence on the battlefield England did not conquer Scotland to form Britain it was determined that at the time it would be mutually beneficial to unite. And yes in years gone bye Scotland, Ireland etc have formed alliances with the French and other countries but this does not take away the victories etc. look at Iraq and Afghanistan Britain is allied with the USA and other nations. Does this somehow mean that Britons battle efforts are not worthy of admiration etc.

Also top economists have studied the case of a completely independent Scotland and determined that we would actually most likely be a very prosperous country on our own due to relatively low populace. And incomes from north sea oil, renewable energies and our exports ie whiskey etc. However these predictions should be taken as just that predictions. Because obviously these things can be effected by the current world economy etc.


Again I am not saying Scotland should have independence nor am I stating that here in Scotland there is overwhelming support for independence. But don't paint us as some tiny unimportant back water country with no resources of our own leeching off of England's charity as this simply is not the case.
Im not sure Scotland has any claim to North sea oil,same as Argentina has no claim to the Falklands.Do the Scots have any way of drilling the oil for themselves BP is not a Scottish owed company is it ?
Same in South Africa.All the Diamond mines were white owed and always will be .New landlords think they have a right to the resources but have no means to get it themselves.Industry has no loyalty to Any Nation.WW2 proved that with many companies supplying both sides .
I think this breakaway is brought about by a need for Scotland to distance itself from multiculturalism and rising immigration in England.
It does not want to be chained to the sinking ship as it sees England to be .Happy enough to be British when times were good .
A kite rises higher against the wind,then with it.

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Re: “independence” for Scotland!

Post by Easylife » Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:57 pm

COflyontheWALL wrote:
Easylife wrote:Historically the Scots are descended from the Norman Invaders anyway as were the English royalty.The border of Scotland moved up and down over the years and Scotland has only existed in its current form for a relatively short time in the scheme of things.
Would be interesting to see the reaction in the US if a State decided it wanted to break away .

...hmmm. We've already seen it. That didn't work out very well. It resulted in the death of 2% of the population of the US.

It simply wouldn't happen today. Except maybe Texas.
This is what im saying.Scotland will only get independence if it is in England's best interest to grant it.Militarily it would be like the US losing pearl Harbour.
Cant see Uncle Sam giving that up any time soon.
A kite rises higher against the wind,then with it.

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Re: “independence” for Scotland!

Post by COflyontheWALL » Sat Jan 28, 2012 1:34 am

Easylife wrote:
COflyontheWALL wrote:
Easylife wrote:Historically the Scots are descended from the Norman Invaders anyway as were the English royalty.The border of Scotland moved up and down over the years and Scotland has only existed in its current form for a relatively short time in the scheme of things.
Would be interesting to see the reaction in the US if a State decided it wanted to break away .

...hmmm. We've already seen it. That didn't work out very well. It resulted in the death of 2% of the population of the US.

It simply wouldn't happen today. Except maybe Texas.
This is what im saying.Scotland will only get independence if it is in England's best interest to grant it.Militarily it would be like the US losing pearl Harbour.
Cant see Uncle Sam giving that up any time soon.
But a more applicable example would be the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico. PR devolved to the US as spoils of war in the 1898 conflict with Spain. There have been several plebecites since that time, with the people of the island offered their choice of independence, Statehood, or continuation as a Commonwealth Territory but with full US citizenship for those born there. They consistently forego Statehood and maintain the wonderful US-Income-Tax-Exempt Commonwealth status they have enjoyed for so long. I expect Scotland has the same in mind.
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Re: “independence” for Scotland!

Post by Guest » Sun Jan 29, 2012 9:33 pm

frank2345babies wrote:Let's not forget that Scotland did win its independence on the battlefield England did not conquer Scotland to form Britain it was determined that at the time it would be mutually beneficial to unite. And yes in years gone bye Scotland, Ireland etc have formed alliances with the French and other countries but this does not take away the victories etc. look at Iraq and Afghanistan Britain is allied with the USA and other nations. Does this somehow mean that Britons battle efforts are not worthy of admiration etc.

Also top economists have studied the case of a completely independent Scotland and determined that we would actually most likely be a very prosperous country on our own due to relatively low populace. And incomes from north sea oil, renewable energies and our exports ie whiskey etc. However these predictions should be taken as just that predictions. Because obviously these things can be effected by the current world economy etc.


Again I am not saying Scotland should have independence nor am I stating that here in Scotland there is overwhelming support for independence. But don't paint us as some tiny unimportant back water country with no resources of our own leeching off of England's charity as this simply is not the case.
I have to pay my prescription charges, I also have to pay yours. Not happy with that.

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Re: “independence” for Scotland!

Post by frank2345babies » Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:35 am

your point being? yes scotland gives free prescriptions the reasoning behind this is that it will encourage Scottish people to go to doctors and use the services available before it is too late meaning that smaller health problems can be treated before they escalate causing an overall decrease in NHS costs. wether or not this works is still open to debate. and as i have previously stated the union currently provides benefits to both nations. ie north sea oil (largest oil fields in the north sea are in Scotlands sectors of the sea.) surely the income from this exceeds the costs of prescriptions for a population of less than that of London.

But TBH for all i Know Scotlands Money from Westminster may well exceed all the income generated on Scotlands Shores I Honestly dont know and i have only now started looking into it so i can make an informed choice when the time comes to vote. As of now i am perched firmly on the fence regarding independance, from what i read more ppl in England support Scotlands Breakaway than ppl in Scotland.

And at a time when Alot of ppl in the UK are becoming increasingly frustrated at the intervention from EU on national matters in the UK. Is it so wrong or unexpected that Scotland is also frustrated about intervention from another government regarding our national matters.

also finally just want to state these are my beliefs and feelings and i may well change them depending on what i find out in the future and shouldnt be considered as the general consensus in scotland.

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Re: “independence” for Scotland!

Post by VTman » Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:51 pm

Scotland has no jobs, poor health,high murder rate, 20% child poverty 18 % of males of working age in Glasgow are too sick to work.

They are also extremely rich in north sea oil.

I have no idea why they might believe they are getting a poor deal in the union?

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Re: “independence” for Scotland!

Post by falkor » Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:41 pm

but we have been repeatedly told that the North Sea Oil has run out

the riches of North Sea Oil are gone and to get anymore out involves drilling deeper and deeper for less and less oil

and that was on the news 2 years ago

so what else is there ?

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Re: “independence” for Scotland!

Post by kristorf » Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:18 am

falkor wrote:so what else is there ?
Haggis??

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Re: “independence” for Scotland!

Post by purplepig20 » Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:19 am

Deep fried Mars Bars!!! :slbg:
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Re: “independence” for Scotland!

Post by COflyontheWALL » Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:27 am

purplepig20 wrote:Deep fried Mars Bars!!! :slbg:
Buy a square foot of an estate and be a Laird?
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Re: “independence” for Scotland!

Post by frank2345babies » Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:59 pm

lol, yeah north sea oil reserves are low. and as i said more Scots dont want independance than those that do according to opinion polls which makes me believe that most dont think we get a bad deal from the union. And i also believe that the SNP know that the only chance of winning a vote is to get 16 and 17 year olds involved in the votes who will automatically vote for independance without studying the facts.

Besides North sea oil which is obviously Finite Scotland apparantly plans to invest heavily and become a leader in renewable enrgy and has big exports, whisky, Harris tweed(lol) and has a good tourism industry.

Someone said above that Independance will only be allowed if England allow it and it is in Englands best interests. meaning that the union must also be beneficial to Englan but your replies suggest that this isnt the case and Scotland couldnt support itself.

must admit i have tried a deep fried "snickers" before in my youth and found it strangly nice. give it a try someday.

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Re: “independence” for Scotland!

Post by COflyontheWALL » Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:45 am

I wonder if this situation will shake out into a peaceful level of coexistence, such as the excellent relationship the United States and Canada enjoy, which is as good if not better than US-UK relations- The best of friends and allies down the line, for good or ill.
There are cultural differences to be sure, but Canadians and Americans look and even sound the same (except for the froggies in Quebec ;-) ) and for all our similarities we have very separate political systems, great national pride and no intention of combining into a single entity. You might wake up one day and find yourselves in exactly the same good place.
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Re: “independence” for Scotland!

Post by Madra Rhu » Thu Feb 09, 2012 11:46 pm

Oh fly, try calling a Cannuck a Yank and see how friendly he is then :slbg: And it is well known the Mason-Dixie line is the biggest fault line in the north american continent putting the San Andreas in the shade. :sloo:
Scot is the Irish word for "raider". The first Scots came over from Northern Ireland and the first King of Scots was Fergus Mac Erc. Go to Kilmartin in Argyll. The predominent strain in Scotland is Viking. Related to the Normans by geographical origin but really sod all to do with them after the family went their different ways.
Whatever happened to the Picts. Same as happened to the Celts of England. They assimilated their conqueror.

History lessons and humourous digs aside, here is a political thought.
Even if Scotland votes for independance or the "devomax" solution Alex Salmond wants really, Scotland will still be subjected to EU trades and laws.
Will they be obliged to adopt the Euro? Ask the Irish. Whatever happened to the punt?

So many things to take into consideration. And the reason so many English want to say :slby: to the Scots? We're sick to death of your bleeding bleeting on about how this day and every day is against you :slraz:
Get a life

Oh wherever be the stone of scone...a scot shall sit upon the throne
One Monarch, One Realm, UNITED. A sum of all our parts.
Always remember; the law and justice; never the twain shall meet. They are seperate and have nothing in common with each other. Bit like being married!!

Regards

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Re: “independence” for Scotland!

Post by Ethnic » Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:23 am

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Being wed to a Scot and having lived there for some years I find Madra's comments not far from the truth.

As for the original question, I don't think it a good idea and I don't think it will happen. After the emotive arguments and dreaming have cleared the majority will see that it simply will not be in their national interest. If I'm proved wrong then I wish them well - they'll need it and so will we......

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